Compare this story to the other Tobias Wolff stories we have read. How are they similar? In what ways do they differ? If you were to draw a triangle and then place each character on each axis of the triangle, where you would you place them? What would each axis stand for? In other words, consider the triangular relationships between the characters in the Tobias Wolff short stories and decide how the relationships between the three are similar. You must use all of the characters in your answer. Make sure you provide examples or quotes to support your answers.
You might choose to format your answer in the following way.
I think, that Talbot from “Smokers”, Mary Ann from “Two Boys and a Girl,” and Clarke from “Flyboys” would all share the same axis of the triangle because __________________________________________________________________________________. For example when _____________________________________________________________________.
I think that the other axis would be shared by ___________________ from _________________________, _________________ from __________________, and ________________ from ___________________, because _____________________________________________________________________________________. For example, _________________________________________________________________________. Finally I think that ___________________ from _________________________, _________________ from __________________, and ________________ from ___________________, are similar because _____________________________________________________________________________________. For example, _______________________________________________________________________.
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31 comments:
-sam hammer
I think that Talbot from "Smokers", Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl" and Clark from "Flyboys" are all on the same axis. In each of the stories, these are the characters being fought after. In the end of "Flyboys" Freddy and the narrator both want to be friends with Clark. Clark is stuck in the middle. During "Two Boys and a Girl" Rafe and Gilbert are fighting over Mary Ann. She is the prize. In "Smokers" Talbot is caught in the middle between Eugene and the narrator. I think that the other axis would be shared by Eugene from "Smokers", Freddy from "Flyboys", and Rafe from "Two Boys and a Girl". All of these characters stand in the way of the main characters from getting their goal. Rafe stands in the way of Gilbert. Freddy stands in the way of the narrator and Eugene stands in the way of the narrator. Finally I think that the narrator from "Flyboys", the narrator from "Smokers" and Gilbert from "Two Boys and a Girl" are all on the same axis. These are all of the main characters in these stories. They all want to betray their old friends and make new ones with the characters in the first axis.
I think, that Talbot from "Smokers", Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl" and Clark from "Flyboys" would all share the same axis of the triangle because they are all linked between two other characters in the story. For example, in "Smokers", Talbot is getting fought after from Eugene and the narrator. I also think that in "Two Boys and a Girl", Gilbert adn Rafe are both fighting over for Mary Ann. She, as Sam said in his comment, is the prize. In a way, if one of them gets Mary Ann, then they win and the contest is over. In addition, "Flyboys" also has the same connection as the previous two stories we have read. In "Flyboys", the narrator and Freddy both want to friends with Clark, the rich kid. All of these characters stand in the way of the main character from getting his main goal. Rafe stands in the way of Gilbert. Freddy stands in the way of the narrator and also Eugene stands in the way of the narrator as well. Therefore, I think that Talbot from "Smokers", Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl", and Clark from "Flyboys", all stand on the same axis. These are all main characters in each story and each and every one of them wants to lose their old friends and make new ones with the characters that have the better life, which are the ones on the first axis.
In "smokers" Eugene and the narrator fight over Talbot in a way similar to the way that Rafe and Gilbert have a fued going on over Mary-Ann in "two boys and girl. These characters would share the same axis. One could also link Clark and Freddy from "Flyboys" in the triangle because the narrator is stuck in between Clark and his old friend Freddy. They differ beacause in "smokers" the narrators problem in the axis is eliminated because Eugene gets kicked out of Coate. In "Flyboys" and "Smokers" the narrators' problems or people that they are stuck in between are not eliminated.
Sam I completely agree with you and having read your comment, you are very true in the fact that all of these characters stand in the way of the narrator reaching their goals. I don't agree with you though when you say that they all want to betray their old friends to make characters with the ones in the first axis because the narrator in "Smokers" never mentions that he wants Eugene to get kicked out or anything of that sort.
I think that Talbot from "smokers", Mary Ann from "two boys and a girl" and clark from "flyboys" are all on the same axis. They are all the charcters that the others charcters either want to friends with or what to be with. Mary Ann is the girl in "two boys and a girl" who is being fought over. Both boys want her to go out with them. Gilbert gets mad when he hears that she is looking forward to rafe coming home becuase when rafe was home before he never got to talk to her becuase rafe was in the way. In "smokers" Talbot in the character who the other charcters are fighting over. Both Eugene and the narrator want to room with talbot because he is the smart, rich boy. In the end Eugene gets expelled for something that Talbot and the narrator do originally and he never tells on them which shows how good a friend he is. And lastly Clark of "flyboys" both freddy and the narrator have been friends for a long time and they had an awkward situation and have avoided eachother for a long time. now the narrator is friends with clark and freddy sees that he has a new friend and is kindof gealous and wants to friends with them too. The main characters in all of these stories: Gilbert and the narrators from "smokers" and "flyboys" are all on the same axis because they are all trying to move on from their old life to their new life.
I think that Talbot from "Smokers," Mary Ann from "Two boys and a Girl,' and Clarke from "Flyboys" would all share the same axis of the triangle because they all are the characters who are stuck in an awkward position because they are liked by the two of the other characters, but like one better. For example, Mary Ann is liked by both the narrator and Rafe, but only likes Rafe as more than a friend. I think that the other axis would be shared by Eugene from "Smokers," Rafe from "Two boys and a Girl," and Freddy from "Flyboys" because they are all the one's being liked by the people from the first axis. For example, Eugene is liked by Talbot, who is liked by him, and the narrator. Finally I think that the narrator from "Flyboys," the narrator from "Two Boys and a girl," and the narrator from "Smokers" share an axis because they all are the "rejects." They are liked by no one and never get their way. For example, the narrator from "Two boys and a girl" likes Mary Ann, but Mary Ann does not like him in the same way.
I think that Talbot from "Smokers", Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl", and Clarke from "Flyboys" would all share the same axis of the triangle because, they are the person that everyone wants to be with. For example, at the end of each story the main character got each person in some sort of way. I think that the other axis would be shared by the narrator from "Smokers", the other narrator from "Flyboys", and Gilbert from "Two Boys and a Girl", because they are the main characters that end up getting the other cahracters from before in their own possession. For example, the narrator is more friends with Clarke and Freddy, the narrator from the "Smokers" gets to become friends with Talbot, and Gilbert gets Mary Ann to himself.
I think, that Talbot from “Smokers”, Mary Ann from “Two Boys and a Girl,” and Clark from “Flyboys” would all share the same axis of the triangle because they all wantto be friends with someone wants to be friends with someone else and that someone else wants to be friends with them. For example when Mary is becoming good friends with Gilbert but then Rafe calls her and she gets really exicted while Gilbert gets mad. I think that the other axis would be shared by Gilbert from "Two Boys and a Girl", the narrator from "Fly Boys", and Talbot from "Smokers" because they all dont make it "thought the tunnel" yet they all have chances to. For example when Gilbert could let Rafe get the girl in the story but he doesn't so he is going to ruin his friendship with Rafe to get a girl. Finally I think that Clark from "Fly Boys", Eugene fron "Smokers", and Refe from "Two Boys and a Girl" are all similar because they are in the way of the main charactor of completing their goals. Like Rafe is in the way of Gilbert getting Mary Ann.
I think that Clark from "FLyboys", Talbot from "SMokers', and Mary Ann from "Two Boys And A Girl" all represent the same thing. To the narrator of each story, they are the character that the narrator wants or needs that is nto necessarily the best chioce the narrator can make as to who would be the best character the narrator can make a bond with. The narrator in Flyboys uses Clarke for his money, house and almost idolizes him. There is little or no real friendship in them and the narrator treats Clark meanly most of the time, so they shuoldn't be friends because the narrator doesnt' really care about Clarke. In Smokers, Talbot is also idolized by the narrator as the ideal friend with the ideal wealthy life, even though talbot makes many bad decesions and doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself, so the narrator shouldn't care about Talbot because Talbot is not a good friend to him, either. In 2 Boys and a Girl", the narrator shouldn't go out with Mary Ann because Mary Ann is the girlfriend of the narrator's best friend. It's very mean to steal her from his friend.
david-i agree that eugene and rafe were both getting in the way of the main character's friendship with the character the narrator wants to be friends with.
marina-obv i agree with you becasuse i wrote kinda the same thing
I think that Talbot from "smokers", Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a girl" and Clark from "flyboys" would all be located on one axis together. they all fit together because htye are all antagonist in the story. For example, what had happend with clarke was he created this problenm for the narrator by brining him back to freddy's house, which the narrator had been avoiding. Mary Ann also creates a problem by causing rafe and gilbert to fight over her, although she might not be doing this intentilly, she is still causing the problem. lastley, talbot is the problem because he has these two kids fighting over him, one being the protaginist of the story. agiane, he might not be trying to cause the problem, but he still is the problem of the story. Finnaly, on one of the other axisis would be both the bnarrators from smokers and flyboys, and gilbert from two boys and a girl. they would all fit on this axsis because they are all the protaginist. as i said before, they face all the problems from the antagoinist.
I think that Talbot from the "Smokers", Mary Ann from "Two boys and a girl," and Clarke from "Flyboys" would all share the same axis of the triangle because they all have been getting wanted more by each friend. For example in the short story "Smokers" Talbot is getting pulled in from both the narrator and Eugene. Also in the short story "Flyboys" both Freddy and the narrator want to be friends with Clark, and in "two Boys and a Girl" both boys want to be friends with Mary Ann.To prove that the boys both were competing for the "prize" of Mary Ann they said that she is the prize and who ever gets her is the winner. Finally all the characters in each Tobias Wolff stories were all trying to leave there old life and start there new one.
Mike I agree with the fact about how everyone in all the books is trying to leave there old life and start a new one. Also I agree with everyone who said that one person in every book is being fought over by two friends.
I think, that Talbot from "Smokers," Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl," and Clarke from "Flyboys" would all share the same axis of the triangle because each character is stuck in an awkward position between the three stories. For example, in "Flyboys", the narrator and Clark both want to be friends with Freddy. The narrator wants to be best friends with Clark now because he is rich, and he has moved on from his relationship to Freddy. In "Two Boys and a Girl," Mary Ann is stuck in the middle because she is being fought over by two boys, Gilbert and Rafe. Gilbert realizes that he really likes Mary Ann, and would betray his old friend for her. In "Smokers", Talbot is caught between Eugene and the narrator. When Talbot was smoking in the room, Eugene takes the blame instead of confronting Talbot and placing the blame on him. It seems like all of the narrators in each story want to make new friends. Each narrator has had old frieds before, but they want to move on to explore and get to know new people.
Sam - I completely agree with everything that you said about friendships and betrayal. Also I agree with you when you said that each character is sort of getting "fought over".
In all of these books, there is a character who has to pick-n-choose. In "Flyboys", the narrator and Freddy are both fighting over pratically, friendship. Since Freddy doesn't have any friends any more, he would really love to be in the narrators shoes, having clark as a new best friend. In "Smokers," Talbot has to basically chose the narrator or Eugene for his roomate/friend. The narrator seems to like Talbot because he is a more "dangerous" and more of a "rich kid" than Eugene is. In "Two Boys and a Girl," Rafe and Gilbert are both fighting over Mary-Ann. Gilbert is really starting to realize how much he loves her, and he's willing to betray one of his best friends for her. As for the differences between these three stories, in "smokers," the narrators problem is "eliminated" because Eugene gets kicked out of Choate for getting caught smoking in his dorm room. This leaves Talbot with his second choice for a room mate, the narrator. In "flyboys," the narrator almost avoids his problem, Freddy, by refusing to let him in on the building of the air plane, and the only way that he was considering letting Freddy help them out is if Freddy was going to take the canopy away if he wasn't allowed to help them. In "two boys and a girl," unlike smokers and flyboys, the problem just isn't eliminated or taken away.
Sam-
I also agree with you when you said that all in each of the stories, at least one of the characters is getting fought over. Like Frank, I also agree with you on what you said about how Gilbert would risk betraying his friend just so he could be with Mary Ann.
i think that mary ann from "two boys and a girl", Talbot from"smokers", and clark from "flyboys" are all the same in a weiad way. all of them are faced with a dicition and dont fallow through with it. in all these stories the character had a great chace to change the readers perspective of them by doing the right thing. then when the chance came for the they didn't do it. i believe they are all the same axis because they act the same as a young teenager/ers. all of them are young and stupid and will regret there mistakes when the become older and more wise.
think, that Talbot from “Smokers”, Mary Ann from “Two Boys and a Girl,” and Clarke from “Flyboys” would all share the same axis of the triangle because they all are wanted by the two other characters. Mary Ann from "Two Boys and a Girl" is wanted by Rafe and Gilbert. Rafe was Mary Ann's previous girl friend and when Gilbert hears news that Rafe is coming back he gets envious. Gilbert is Mary Ann's present boy friend and Gilbert doesn't likes having her. we know this because he says "but he stopped short of telling Mary Ann what was most on his mind, and what he belived she already knew, because of the chance that she didn't know or wasn't ready to admit she did." here the narrator is talking about how Gilbert has real feelings for Mary Ann and wants to step it up a level but he is not sure if Mary Ann is ready yet. Clark from "Flyboys" is also being chased after because The narrator wants to be Clark friend and so does Freddy. Freddy asks if he can fly in the plane but when the narrator says no he is kicking Freddy out of the picture so only he can have him. Talbot is being chased after because Eugene is already his roommate so they already have established a friendship but the narrator is constantly tiring to catch up with him. an example of this is when they are going to smoke in the chorus room and the narrator goes along because he wants to not be left out of the freindship.I think that the other axis would be shared by The Narrator from "Smokers" The narrator from "flyboys" and Gilbert from "two boys and a girl" are on the same axis because they all want to be friends with the person from the first axis. The Narrator from "Smokers" does many things just to be with Talbot. so does the narrator From "Flyboys". He goes over his house often even though he dispises all the life in the house because he wants to have Clarks life. Gilbert from "two boys and a girl takes Mary Ann out almost every night and spends his day off with her. he really wants to have her and doesn't want Rafe to come back and be her boyfriend again. Finally i think that Rafe from "Two boys and a girl", Eugine from "smokers", and Freddy from "flyboys" all stand in the main characters way of getting what they want. Rafe stands in the way of Gilbert and Mary Ann's relationship because they had something going that was better than what Gilbert and Mary Ann have. Freddy stands in the way of The narrator being the only friend of Clark in "Flyboys" because if The narrator were to let Freddy into their friendship, he might take some of the attention that The narrator wants and this would also bring the bad luck and loneliness to their freindship. Lastly i think that Eugine stands in the Narrators way of being friends with Talbot because Eugine already has many traits that the two share and it is very hard for the narrator to get ahead of him. with out Eugine, The narrator would be very good friends with Talbot and maybe he would have invited the narrator to his house over the break rather than Eugine.
Austin
Sam
I agree with you on the three axises you chose for the people and for the reasons except for your last axis where you say they all want to betray their old friends because for one point, Eugine was never The narrators friend and also they don't really betray their friends they just make choices that benefit only themselves
-julian
i think Freddy from "Flyboys", Rafe from "Two Boys And A Girl", and Eugene from "Smokers" fall on the same axis of the triangle. They are all people the main charapter are freinds, or should be freinds with, but are distanced by the main charapter because they get in the way of what he wants, rich and sucsessful freinds, Mary Ann, and to be rich and succsesfull respectivly. I think Gilbert and the two narrators fall on the same axis as people who have two make a dificult decision about who theyre freinds are to be althoug hthey could really pick both. I think that Clark from "Flyboys", Mary Ann from "Two Boys And A Girl", and Talbot are the more apealing side beacuse they are or are part of what the main charapter is trying to attein.
I think Talbot, Maryanne, and
the narrator from "Flyboys" are very alike from all three different stories. I believe they would all lie on the same axis. I think they would be on the same axis because they are the people that everyone wants to be with/be friends with. They are the characters everyone "fights" after. In "Smokers" Talbot is the one everybody wants to be friends with. His dad is famous and races cars. In "Flyboys" the narrator is stuck between two friends. They were/are his friend. In "two boys and a girl" Mary Ann was fought over between rafe and gilbert.
Sam: I agree with you that mary anne and Talbot should be on the same axis but i dont see why Clarke would be on there too. I think that the narrator is the one being stuck between two friends instead of clarke.
i think that talbot from smokers mary ann from two boys and a girl and clark from flyboys all belong on the same axis. in the stories we read about these characters are the more fortunate characters in the book and the chacters that the other characters wanted to hangout with the most. when rafe goes on a fishing trip with his dad gilbert decides that he know longer wants to be friends with rafe and he asumes that rafe will foget about his whole life in washington. htis is when gilbert starts to like mary ann and wants to get rafe out of the picture. the other axis would consist of the two narrators and gilbert. these characters are the protagonists in the stories they're in and they each have their own antagonist that they face in almost the same way. gilbert decides to throw his friendship with rafe away to get another friendship that he thinks he wants more. just like the narrator in flyboys did to freddy to become friends with clark.
owen the way u used intentienally is incorrect u either have to change the sentence or use unintentienally
I think, that Talbot from “Smokers”, Mary Ann from “Two Boys and a Girl,” and Clarke from “Flyboys” would all share the same axis of the triangle because they are all friends of the main character but show it in strange ways. For example when Mary Ann suggested that Gilbert should invite someone to the party he got really mad because he thought that she like him as more than a friend.
I think that the other axis would be shared by Eugene from "Smokers, Freddy from "Flyboys", and Rafe from "Two boys and a girl", because they are all genuine friends and the main character takes their friendship for granted. For example, Gilbert thought it would be ok for him to date Mary Ann even though he would betray Rafe. Finally I think that Gilbert from "Two boys and a girl", the narrator from "Smokers", and the narrator from "Flyboys", are similar because they all have chances to prove themselves to be mature, responsible, and good people but they all miss their opportunities. For example, in "Flyboys" the narrator has a chance to be friends with Freddy again but he picks Clark instead.
i agree with many people because i think that we said basicly the same thing but in different words
noah:
I think that eugene from smokers, Clark from flyboys, and rafe from two boys and a girl are all on the same triangle. I believe that they are on the same triangle because they are all the lucky people, the people with good friends or girlfriends. I think that Rafe is in the triangle because his girlfriend is Mary-Ann who Gilbert really likes so he is lucky. I think Eugene is also the lucky one because he got to be friends and roomates with the main characters dream friend in smokers. I also think that Clark is the lucky one from flyboys because he is good friends with the narrarator and that is where Freddy wants be. I think that these people are on the same triangle because they are the lucky ones with the good friends
Kent Byrd
I feel like this story is similar to other Tobias Wolf stories because it involves the same common conflict as all the others. The repeating conflict is the social dificulties encountered by the characters, being forced to chose between friends. Marry Ann and Clark play te same roles in thier stories. They play the character in the middle, the character that is between the other two characters. This is where the conflict comes in. Fighting, or a big decision ensues over this character. This is similar to Rafe and Gilbert feuding over Mary Ann, the nararator and Eugene in "Smokers", ind in an indirect way, the decision that the nararator of "Flyboys" has to make between Clarck and Freddy.
its ben
I think that rafe, clark and talbot would all fit on the same axis because they are all well off, they all have alot going for them and they all have friends who are very close to them, and in some cases, like clarks, the relashinship detierorates during the story. but for gilbert and rafe you can also see that thier relashonship would be drastically changed by gilberts time spent with mary ann. As for talbot you can see him smoking with his friends also strains thier relashonship, and ultimately leads to one of his best friends getting kicked out of Yale.
Yea i completly agree with Mike and is basically how i see all of the characters being connected.
Ben
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